Discussion:
HERMES Mail for Windows (Eudora's New Generation) coming along nicely - fundraising
(too old to reply)
Nick Werner-Matavka
2019-10-01 20:34:19 UTC
Permalink
Hello, all!

Depending on how closely you've been following news on the HERMES Mail front, you may or may not know how far along we are. The answer is: quite the distance. A first release (numbered 8 for continuity's sake) is essentially a certainty ("death" rather than "taxes"), and we're on track to deliver on every promise we have made. Sure, a few principles have been thrown to the winds, but that's neither here nor there.

To give you a quantum of reassurance with regards to our progress, we're releasing our Mercurial logs. Essentially, this is a summary of every change we made to the code, at what time, and who was responsible. You may access it at https://textuploader.com/19vjx I'm a bit hesitant to announce any sort of date, what with the somewhat troubled developmental cycle and all, but know that it is coming.

If you haven't any clue what I'm on about, well, this is the next version of Eudora, produced with the Qualcomm source and fixing most of the issues that have made it obsolescent.

We've reached the point where the limiting factor, rather than being manpower (we've now three developers), has become funding for future versions. This is, to an extent, a good thing; but it does mean I'm passing the cap around once more. Whatever money we do get from you won't affect version 8; this is, rather, for version 8.5.

Feel free to donate here: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/hermes-mail-the-story-of-windows-eudora-continues/x/19871827#/
Jens K. Loewe
2019-10-02 19:29:48 UTC
Permalink
So all there is - as of now - are adjustments to make HERMES (well,
Eudora 7.1) behave more nicely on Windows 10? Or have I missed the big
Wow in the hg logs yet?
Nick Werner-Matavka
2019-10-03 09:57:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jens K. Loewe
So all there is - as of now - are adjustments to make HERMES (well,
Eudora 7.1) behave more nicely on Windows 10? Or have I missed the big
Wow in the hg logs yet?
Well, no. And yes. Eudora 7.1 is mature software, which essentially means that there's no need or desire for big UI changes that'll blow the user's socks off as soon as he opens up the new version.

From the back end, though, there is an enormous amount of work to be done. We're changing out HTML renderers, for example; the result of this change isn't very visible unless you're reading a lot of rich-text mail, but it was an absolute bear to fix, and long past due. Unicode should be ready soon as well. Again, there's no 'Wow!' factor there from the user's standpoint, but it is something we absolutely need to do in this hyper-connected, international world. Keep in mind that the last Hg entry was a month ago and we're still measurably advancing since that time.

Also, we're essentially forced to use a build environment from 2005. We can fix this but it'll take time. HERMES Mail 8 (i.e. the next version after 7.1) will still be on MSVC++ 2005, but the fundraising notice is for the version after that. We're trying to make the Eudora codebase fully modern and a rival to Thunderbird, Postbox, what have you. This was impossible with one person. With three people it's still difficult because of the passage of time.

But if you're asking if we've spent the last year and a half doing nothing but jacking off, well, that couldn't be further from the truth.
Rick C
2019-10-03 14:46:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
Post by Jens K. Loewe
So all there is - as of now - are adjustments to make HERMES (well,
Eudora 7.1) behave more nicely on Windows 10? Or have I missed the big
Wow in the hg logs yet?
Well, no. And yes. Eudora 7.1 is mature software, which essentially means that there's no need or desire for big UI changes that'll blow the user's socks off as soon as he opens up the new version.
No, but there are plenty of nuisance bugs which I am hoping you can address once you get the major aspects updated.
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
From the back end, though, there is an enormous amount of work to be done. We're changing out HTML renderers, for example; the result of this change isn't very visible unless you're reading a lot of rich-text mail, but it was an absolute bear to fix, and long past due. Unicode should be ready soon as well. Again, there's no 'Wow!' factor there from the user's standpoint, but it is something we absolutely need to do in this hyper-connected, international world. Keep in mind that the last Hg entry was a month ago and we're still measurably advancing since that time.
This will be a WOW factor for me. I get some emails where the text is tiny, but the images are large. Using the zoom doesn't really help because the text gets spread over a page two or three times the size of my computer screen. If I display the email in a browser it looks normal. I also have trouble with the text size in some mailing lists where the boiler plate text looks ok, but the content text is rather small. I can make this larger with zoom, but the two texts don't seem to enlarge the same.
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
Also, we're essentially forced to use a build environment from 2005. We can fix this but it'll take time. HERMES Mail 8 (i.e. the next version after 7.1) will still be on MSVC++ 2005, but the fundraising notice is for the version after that. We're trying to make the Eudora codebase fully modern and a rival to Thunderbird, Postbox, what have you. This was impossible with one person. With three people it's still difficult because of the passage of time.
I think you are saying you want the internal code and tools to be more interesting to developers than what you are using now?
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
But if you're asking if we've spent the last year and a half doing nothing but jacking off, well, that couldn't be further from the truth.
No, please, don't think that is what people believe. I've noticed your development announcements often have a bit of a defensive tone to them. Please don't think anyone is criticizing. I'm just so happy that work is being done. No one is complaining about the pace. Heck, the installation issues are very important. There's no point at all in trying to update an application that won't install correctly for many users. Before we can worry with the UI or new features we need to have the thing working correctly.
--
Rick C.

- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Nick Werner-Matavka
2019-10-03 15:15:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick C
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
Post by Jens K. Loewe
So all there is - as of now - are adjustments to make HERMES (well,
Eudora 7.1) behave more nicely on Windows 10? Or have I missed the big
Wow in the hg logs yet?
Well, no. And yes. Eudora 7.1 is mature software, which essentially means that there's no need or desire for big UI changes that'll blow the user's socks off as soon as he opens up the new version.
No, but there are plenty of nuisance bugs which I am hoping you can address once you get the major aspects updated.
Oh, we certainly will, have no doubt about that---but getting it to link and run takes priority, of course. No sense building a wall if your mortar's not up to snuff.
Post by Rick C
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
From the back end, though, there is an enormous amount of work to be done. We're changing out HTML renderers, for example; the result of this change isn't very visible unless you're reading a lot of rich-text mail, but it was an absolute bear to fix, and long past due. Unicode should be ready soon as well. Again, there's no 'Wow!' factor there from the user's standpoint, but it is something we absolutely need to do in this hyper-connected, international world. Keep in mind that the last Hg entry was a month ago and we're still measurably advancing since that time.
This will be a WOW factor for me. I get some emails where the text is tiny, but the images are large. Using the zoom doesn't really help because the text gets spread over a page two or three times the size of my computer screen. If I display the email in a browser it looks normal. I also have trouble with the text size in some mailing lists where the boiler plate text looks ok, but the content text is rather small. I can make this larger with zoom, but the two texts don't seem to enlarge the same.
In that case, absolutely, prepare to be wowed. If you're not au fait with HTML renderers... Eudora 7.1 uses the same core that powers Microsoft Internet Explorer 6. *waits for laughter to subside* Not joking. So, if we get it to communicate with Chromium instead, you'll see that it works better all around.
Post by Rick C
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
Also, we're essentially forced to use a build environment from 2005. We can fix this but it'll take time. HERMES Mail 8 (i.e. the next version after 7.1) will still be on MSVC++ 2005, but the fundraising notice is for the version after that. We're trying to make the Eudora codebase fully modern and a rival to Thunderbird, Postbox, what have you. This was impossible with one person. With three people it's still difficult because of the passage of time.
I think you are saying you want the internal code and tools to be more interesting to developers than what you are using now?
Well, not exactly. In fact, not at all. Computer languages change over time, like human ones do---I think an analogy might serve you well, it's like trying to teach Shakespeare to a modern ninth grader. Not to make it interesting, but to make it comprehensible!

Essentially, the 2005-vintage code will not be understood by a 2018-era compiler (the program, not the programmer). It throws something like 1,980 syntax errors (the equivalent of a missing comma or a word it doesn't understand). So we will need to fix every single one of those... but my point is, that can wait for the next version because we really need to focus on release first and update later.
Post by Rick C
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
But if you're asking if we've spent the last year and a half doing nothing but jacking off, well, that couldn't be further from the truth.
No, please, don't think that is what people believe. I've noticed your development announcements often have a bit of a defensive tone to them. Please don't think anyone is criticizing. I'm just so happy that work is being done. No one is complaining about the pace. Heck, the installation issues are very important. There's no point at all in trying to update an application that won't install correctly for many users. Before we can worry with the UI or new features we need to have the thing working correctly.
I don't think that's what people (aside from a particularly noisy minority) believe. If you've caught me being defensive, it's because I have been targeted by a few people (meirman, George C. Durman, etc.) in public and in private. Some have even made it personal ("I took a look at your facebook photos and you are the weirdest looking person I've ever seen", or even "I just plain don't like you"). This wouldn't be good for anyone's mental health, but especially not one who's hit Pause on a promising career in Corporate Law to work on software instead... and especially not one who's had the worst kind of difficulty attracting developers.

We all make sacrifices. This was mine. I'll gladly take criticism... but please keep it directed at our efforts rather than my face or my personality!
Rick C
2019-10-03 22:53:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
Post by Rick C
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
Post by Jens K. Loewe
So all there is - as of now - are adjustments to make HERMES (well,
Eudora 7.1) behave more nicely on Windows 10? Or have I missed the big
Wow in the hg logs yet?
Well, no. And yes. Eudora 7.1 is mature software, which essentially means that there's no need or desire for big UI changes that'll blow the user's socks off as soon as he opens up the new version.
No, but there are plenty of nuisance bugs which I am hoping you can address once you get the major aspects updated.
Oh, we certainly will, have no doubt about that---but getting it to link and run takes priority, of course. No sense building a wall if your mortar's not up to snuff.
Post by Rick C
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
From the back end, though, there is an enormous amount of work to be done. We're changing out HTML renderers, for example; the result of this change isn't very visible unless you're reading a lot of rich-text mail, but it was an absolute bear to fix, and long past due. Unicode should be ready soon as well. Again, there's no 'Wow!' factor there from the user's standpoint, but it is something we absolutely need to do in this hyper-connected, international world. Keep in mind that the last Hg entry was a month ago and we're still measurably advancing since that time.
This will be a WOW factor for me. I get some emails where the text is tiny, but the images are large. Using the zoom doesn't really help because the text gets spread over a page two or three times the size of my computer screen. If I display the email in a browser it looks normal. I also have trouble with the text size in some mailing lists where the boiler plate text looks ok, but the content text is rather small. I can make this larger with zoom, but the two texts don't seem to enlarge the same.
In that case, absolutely, prepare to be wowed. If you're not au fait with HTML renderers... Eudora 7.1 uses the same core that powers Microsoft Internet Explorer 6. *waits for laughter to subside* Not joking. So, if we get it to communicate with Chromium instead, you'll see that it works better all around.
Yes, at some point I was informed about using IE for rendering HTML. What I've never understood was if that was something made a part of the Eudora code from way back then (which would explain a lot) or if it used whatever links are provided through the version of Windows being run under.
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
Post by Rick C
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
Also, we're essentially forced to use a build environment from 2005. We can fix this but it'll take time. HERMES Mail 8 (i.e. the next version after 7.1) will still be on MSVC++ 2005, but the fundraising notice is for the version after that. We're trying to make the Eudora codebase fully modern and a rival to Thunderbird, Postbox, what have you. This was impossible with one person. With three people it's still difficult because of the passage of time.
I think you are saying you want the internal code and tools to be more interesting to developers than what you are using now?
Well, not exactly. In fact, not at all. Computer languages change over time, like human ones do---I think an analogy might serve you well, it's like trying to teach Shakespeare to a modern ninth grader. Not to make it interesting, but to make it comprehensible!
Essentially, the 2005-vintage code will not be understood by a 2018-era compiler (the program, not the programmer). It throws something like 1,980 syntax errors (the equivalent of a missing comma or a word it doesn't understand). So we will need to fix every single one of those... but my point is, that can wait for the next version because we really need to focus on release first and update later.
I have been a programmer myself so I understand the basics. When you say the language has changed, I'm not aware of substantial changes that would cause syntax errors (not that I am particularly informed). In fact, that is one of the major aspects of using a high level language is being able to port the code through space (different hardware) and time.

But if the code throws errors, how can you compile it usefully? Are you saying it throws warnings rather than errors? I remember back in the day people often didn't worry about compiler warnings because they didn't understand what they were really saying. Once I got into using VHDL I discovered just how important warnings can be.
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
Post by Rick C
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
But if you're asking if we've spent the last year and a half doing nothing but jacking off, well, that couldn't be further from the truth.
No, please, don't think that is what people believe. I've noticed your development announcements often have a bit of a defensive tone to them. Please don't think anyone is criticizing. I'm just so happy that work is being done. No one is complaining about the pace. Heck, the installation issues are very important. There's no point at all in trying to update an application that won't install correctly for many users. Before we can worry with the UI or new features we need to have the thing working correctly.
I don't think that's what people (aside from a particularly noisy minority) believe. If you've caught me being defensive, it's because I have been targeted by a few people (meirman, George C. Durman, etc.) in public and in private. Some have even made it personal ("I took a look at your facebook photos and you are the weirdest looking person I've ever seen", or even "I just plain don't like you"). This wouldn't be good for anyone's mental health, but especially not one who's hit Pause on a promising career in Corporate Law to work on software instead... and especially not one who's had the worst kind of difficulty attracting developers.
I apologize for those who use the Internet as a barrier to throw insults over. You certainly don't deserve that sort of treatment. You are doing a pretty amazing thing. While many of us like, no love Eudora, few are in a position to be able to even help with what you do.

I saw your tie video. Nice accent.
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
We all make sacrifices. This was mine. I'll gladly take criticism... but please keep it directed at our efforts rather than my face or my personality!
There is room for suggestions perhaps, but no criticism is justified.

Excuse me while I look up Durham.
--
Rick C.

- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Dennis Lee Bieber
2019-10-04 01:40:35 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 15:53:58 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
Post by Rick C
Yes, at some point I was informed about using IE for rendering HTML. What I've never understood was if that was something made a part of the Eudora code from way back then (which would explain a lot) or if it used whatever links are provided through the version of Windows being run under.
And that was the reason many of us recommended that one avoid the IE
rendering option, AND turn off message preview pane -- as both were subject
to executable content in messages.
Post by Rick C
I have been a programmer myself so I understand the basics. When you say the language has changed, I'm not aware of substantial changes that would cause syntax errors (not that I am particularly informed). In fact, that is one of the major aspects of using a high level language is being able to port the code through space (different hardware) and time.
C++ has gone through something like three changes in standard since
that period (1998, 2003, 2011, 2014, and 2017, and a new version due out
next year) -- though if Microsoft compilers are being used, it didn't fully
implement any of them.

I suspect some of those changes are in how some constructs are
interpreted -- what used to be valid is now considered questionable.
--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN
***@ix.netcom.com http://wlfraed.microdiversity.freeddns.org/
Nick Werner-Matavka
2019-10-09 19:27:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick C
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
Post by Rick C
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
Post by Jens K. Loewe
So all there is - as of now - are adjustments to make HERMES (well,
Eudora 7.1) behave more nicely on Windows 10? Or have I missed the big
Wow in the hg logs yet?
Well, no. And yes. Eudora 7.1 is mature software, which essentially means that there's no need or desire for big UI changes that'll blow the user's socks off as soon as he opens up the new version.
No, but there are plenty of nuisance bugs which I am hoping you can address once you get the major aspects updated.
Oh, we certainly will, have no doubt about that---but getting it to link and run takes priority, of course. No sense building a wall if your mortar's not up to snuff.
Post by Rick C
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
From the back end, though, there is an enormous amount of work to be done. We're changing out HTML renderers, for example; the result of this change isn't very visible unless you're reading a lot of rich-text mail, but it was an absolute bear to fix, and long past due. Unicode should be ready soon as well. Again, there's no 'Wow!' factor there from the user's standpoint, but it is something we absolutely need to do in this hyper-connected, international world. Keep in mind that the last Hg entry was a month ago and we're still measurably advancing since that time.
This will be a WOW factor for me. I get some emails where the text is tiny, but the images are large. Using the zoom doesn't really help because the text gets spread over a page two or three times the size of my computer screen. If I display the email in a browser it looks normal. I also have trouble with the text size in some mailing lists where the boiler plate text looks ok, but the content text is rather small. I can make this larger with zoom, but the two texts don't seem to enlarge the same.
In that case, absolutely, prepare to be wowed. If you're not au fait with HTML renderers... Eudora 7.1 uses the same core that powers Microsoft Internet Explorer 6. *waits for laughter to subside* Not joking. So, if we get it to communicate with Chromium instead, you'll see that it works better all around.
Yes, at some point I was informed about using IE for rendering HTML. What I've never understood was if that was something made a part of the Eudora code from way back then (which would explain a lot) or if it used whatever links are provided through the version of Windows being run under.
A somewhat complicated issue, this. The IE engine (Trident) lives in a file called MSHTML.DLL, which is included with Windows (not bundled with Eudora). Eudora simply links to it, yes. But MS shitcanned MSHTML.DLL (which hadn't been updated in dog's years) in 2015, in favour of a streamlined, bugfixed version called Edge (lives in EdgeHTML.DLL), and that, in itself, got shitcanned this year.

Given how unstable Microsoft's built-in HTML renderers are, and how there's no guarantee that the renderer du jour will still be maintained next year, we've got no choice but to bundle something like the Chromium Embedded Framework.
Post by Rick C
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
Post by Rick C
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
Also, we're essentially forced to use a build environment from 2005. We can fix this but it'll take time. HERMES Mail 8 (i.e. the next version after 7.1) will still be on MSVC++ 2005, but the fundraising notice is for the version after that. We're trying to make the Eudora codebase fully modern and a rival to Thunderbird, Postbox, what have you. This was impossible with one person. With three people it's still difficult because of the passage of time.
I think you are saying you want the internal code and tools to be more interesting to developers than what you are using now?
Well, not exactly. In fact, not at all. Computer languages change over time, like human ones do---I think an analogy might serve you well, it's like trying to teach Shakespeare to a modern ninth grader. Not to make it interesting, but to make it comprehensible!
Essentially, the 2005-vintage code will not be understood by a 2018-era compiler (the program, not the programmer). It throws something like 1,980 syntax errors (the equivalent of a missing comma or a word it doesn't understand). So we will need to fix every single one of those... but my point is, that can wait for the next version because we really need to focus on release first and update later.
I have been a programmer myself so I understand the basics. When you say the language has changed, I'm not aware of substantial changes that would cause syntax errors (not that I am particularly informed). In fact, that is one of the major aspects of using a high level language is being able to port the code through space (different hardware) and time.
But if the code throws errors, how can you compile it usefully? Are you saying it throws warnings rather than errors? I remember back in the day people often didn't worry about compiler warnings because they didn't understand what they were really saying. Once I got into using VHDL I discovered just how important warnings can be.
No, when I say errors, I mean errors. Most of them have been fixed by now, such that everything compiles but doesn't link. If it were written in ISO C++ only, then there'd be no problem (ISO C++ doesn't age) but Visual C++ sure does (the IDE), and so do the Microsoft Foundation Classes, and the various proprietary API's. THAT'S where the problem is.

This is also part of the reason we haven't moved the needle too far with respect to next-gen Eudora for the Mac. Eudora/M is a completely different code base (C rather than C++, in fact) and neither it nor the Windows version are cross-platform, given how they use those toolkits and API's. We would have much less trouble if it had been written in Qt or something like that.
DK
2019-12-07 03:44:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Werner-Matavka
This is also part of the reason we haven't moved the needle too far with respect to next-gen
Eudora for the Mac. Eudora/M is a completely different code base (C rather than C++, in fact)
and neither it nor the Windows version are cross-platform, given how they use those toolkits
and API's. We would have much less trouble if it had been written in Qt or something like that.
Can HERMES Mail handle two-factor authentication? I had to drop Eudora use because
there was absolutely no way to fit that with Eudora. Would donate to any Eudora clone to
get that option.

Thanks!

DK

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