Eudora Startup Error Accessing.tmp File

[m***@comcast.net]

I'm getting the following error when starting up Eudora (the temp file
name changes each time):

-------------------
Error accessing file C:\Users\<user>\AppData\Local\Temp\eud12C1.tmp:
The system cannot find the path specified.

Cause:File already exists. (17)
-------------------

Once I click on 'OK' several unhandled exception errors flash by and
then the program closes. It looks like Eudora has permissions to the
folder and the file. I can run Eudora in administration mode but it
uses the mailboxes in the program installation folder (C:\Program
Files (x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora) rather than the mailboxes in the folder
'C:\Users\<user>\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files
(x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora'. The program folder has older version of my
mailboxes so I don't want to just copy the AppData mailboxes to the
program folder, I'd like to fix the problem.

The contents of the temp file looks like a small subset text list of
my mailboxes in the form of 'Example,Example.mbx,M,N'.

I'm running Windows 10 Home, Build 19041.388.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Dennis Lee Bieber]

Post by m***@comcast.net
Once I click on 'OK' several unhandled exception errors flash by and
then the program closes. It looks like Eudora has permissions to the
folder and the file. I can run Eudora in administration mode but it

Admin mode should only be used to /register/ the program (presuming
registration is system-wide and not per user).

Post by m***@comcast.net
'C:\Users\<user>\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files
(x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora'. The program folder has older version of my

VirtualStore is a directory Windows creates to contain /shadow/ copies
of files that are otherwise considered protected by the OS. In other words,
files that should NOT be accessed by a properly written/configured user
program (Very old Eudora -- v4 days perhaps, running in Windows 95, when
there was no protection on directory access, often did use the install
directory for user data files). The contents of VirtualStore might be
removed at any time (thereby losing any changes made to them) by the OS
cleaning up.

Post by m***@comcast.net
mailboxes so I don't want to just copy the AppData mailboxes to the
program folder, I'd like to fix the problem.

By default, your USER data should be in:
C:\Users\Wulfraed\AppData\Roaming\Qualcomm\Eudora (of course, put in your
user login account name). Look in the Eudora.ini file (which should be IN
that directory) and ensure that anything that looks like a file path is
correct for that user and does not identify system directories.

NEVER copy user data to the program installation directory... Even in
Admin mode Eudora should NOT be using the install directory for data files.
It should create/use C:\Users\Root\AppData\Roaming\Qualcomm\Eudora (replace
Root with whatever name your admin account uses. (This presumes your system
was set up with an initial Admin account meant only for installing
applications and system maintenance, along with a non-privileged USER
account for daily operations -- if your only account is the admin account,
there could be even more complications besides ownership [see below])

If you use a shortcut to start Eudora, confirm that "target" (in the
shortcut properties) is just the full path to the program:
"C:\Program Files (x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora\Eudora.exe" (if you are on 32-bit
Windows, remove the (x86) part). Have "start in" empty.

Make sure you are the OWNER of the data directory (starting with the
Qualcomm level) and files:
https://www.windowscentral.com/how-take-ownership-files-and-folders-windows-10

There should be NO user data files in the install directory. Brute
force would be to first /copy/ the install directory to some location in
your user directory, Uninstall Eudora, then (need admin) delete anything
left behind by the uninstall process. I'd also remove anything Eudora
related found in VirtualStore. (The only thing I have in
VirtualStore\Qualcomm is an INI file for a 3rd party UTF-8 viewer plug-in).
If paranoid, make a copy of that directory too.

Install Eudora, as admin register it. As non-admin start it, open
Help/About and confirm the directory shown for "data:" is the user
directory. After it has created the initial data directory and
(unconfigured) Eudora.ini, exit Eudora, navigate to the data directory and
start merging the saved copy of your files into it. The next time you start
Eudora it should find the now-configured Eudora.ini file.

[m***@comcast.net]

On Mon, 20 Jul 2020 14:17:57 -0400, Dennis Lee Bieber

Post by Dennis Lee Bieber

Post by m***@comcast.net
Once I click on 'OK' several unhandled exception errors flash by and
then the program closes. It looks like Eudora has permissions to the
folder and the file. I can run Eudora in administration mode but it

Admin mode should only be used to /register/ the program (presuming
registration is system-wide and not per user).

Post by m***@comcast.net
'C:\Users\<user>\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files
(x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora'. The program folder has older version of my

VirtualStore is a directory Windows creates to contain /shadow/ copies
of files that are otherwise considered protected by the OS. In other words,
files that should NOT be accessed by a properly written/configured user
program (Very old Eudora -- v4 days perhaps, running in Windows 95, when
there was no protection on directory access, often did use the install
directory for user data files). The contents of VirtualStore might be
removed at any time (thereby losing any changes made to them) by the OS
cleaning up.

Post by m***@comcast.net
mailboxes so I don't want to just copy the AppData mailboxes to the
program folder, I'd like to fix the problem.

C:\Users\Wulfraed\AppData\Roaming\Qualcomm\Eudora (of course, put in your
user login account name). Look in the Eudora.ini file (which should be IN
that directory) and ensure that anything that looks like a file path is
correct for that user and does not identify system directories.
NEVER copy user data to the program installation directory... Even in
Admin mode Eudora should NOT be using the install directory for data files.
It should create/use C:\Users\Root\AppData\Roaming\Qualcomm\Eudora (replace
Root with whatever name your admin account uses. (This presumes your system
was set up with an initial Admin account meant only for installing
applications and system maintenance, along with a non-privileged USER
account for daily operations -- if your only account is the admin account,
there could be even more complications besides ownership [see below])
If you use a shortcut to start Eudora, confirm that "target" (in the
"C:\Program Files (x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora\Eudora.exe" (if you are on 32-bit
Windows, remove the (x86) part). Have "start in" empty.
Make sure you are the OWNER of the data directory (starting with the
https://www.windowscentral.com/how-take-ownership-files-and-folders-windows-10
There should be NO user data files in the install directory. Brute
force would be to first /copy/ the install directory to some location in
your user directory, Uninstall Eudora, then (need admin) delete anything
left behind by the uninstall process. I'd also remove anything Eudora
related found in VirtualStore. (The only thing I have in
VirtualStore\Qualcomm is an INI file for a 3rd party UTF-8 viewer plug-in).
If paranoid, make a copy of that directory too.
Install Eudora, as admin register it. As non-admin start it, open
Help/About and confirm the directory shown for "data:" is the user
directory. After it has created the initial data directory and
(unconfigured) Eudora.ini, exit Eudora, navigate to the data directory and
start merging the saved copy of your files into it. The next time you start
Eudora it should find the now-configured Eudora.ini file.

Wow, lots to digest here. I'll let you know if this fixes the problem
or if I run into another problem. Forgot to mention I'm running
Eudora version 7.1.0.9, if you needed that information.

Thanks taking the time to respond to my post.

[DaveH2]

Post by m***@comcast.net
I'm getting the following error when starting up Eudora (the temp file
-------------------
The system cannot find the path specified.
Cause:File already exists. (17)
-------------------
Once I click on 'OK' several unhandled exception errors flash by and
then the program closes. It looks like Eudora has permissions to the
folder and the file. I can run Eudora in administration mode but it
uses the mailboxes in the program installation folder (C:\Program
Files (x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora) rather than the mailboxes in the folder
'C:\Users\<user>\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files
(x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora'. The program folder has older version of my
mailboxes so I don't want to just copy the AppData mailboxes to the
program folder, I'd like to fix the problem.
The contents of the temp file looks like a small subset text list of
my mailboxes in the form of 'Example,Example.mbx,M,N'.
I'm running Windows 10 Home, Build 19041.388.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

If you look under Help>About Eudora, where does it say that your data folder is?
Have you tried reinstalling Eudora? This should not affect your saved data, but back it up first just in case!
Cheers, Dave.

[m***@comcast.net]

Post by DaveH2

Post by m***@comcast.net
I'm getting the following error when starting up Eudora (the temp file
-------------------
The system cannot find the path specified.
Cause:File already exists. (17)
-------------------
Once I click on 'OK' several unhandled exception errors flash by and
then the program closes. It looks like Eudora has permissions to the
folder and the file. I can run Eudora in administration mode but it
uses the mailboxes in the program installation folder (C:\Program
Files (x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora) rather than the mailboxes in the folder
'C:\Users\<user>\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files
(x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora'. The program folder has older version of my
mailboxes so I don't want to just copy the AppData mailboxes to the
program folder, I'd like to fix the problem.
The contents of the temp file looks like a small subset text list of
my mailboxes in the form of 'Example,Example.mbx,M,N'.
I'm running Windows 10 Home, Build 19041.388.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

If you look under Help>About Eudora, where does it say that your data folder is?
Have you tried reinstalling Eudora? This should not affect your saved data, but back it up first just in case!
Cheers, Dave.

I can only run Eudora in admin mode so looking at the Help>About
pop-up only shows the following folder locations:

Data: C:\Program Files (x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora
Application: C:\Program Files (x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora

Forgot to mention I'm running Eudora version 7.1.0.9, if that helps.

[Dennis Lee Bieber]

Post by m***@comcast.net
Data: C:\Program Files (x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora

Which, as mentioned, is still an INCORRECT configuration!

I'll repeat my prior question -- are you using a custom shortcut to
start Eudora? On its own, Eudora should be using the AppData directory of
whatever your admin account is...

A non-admin program has NO rights to modify data found in C:\Program
Files\ (with or without (x86) )! If your non-admin startup is trying to use
a protected location for data files, it /should/ be failing.

The only way it should be using the install directory for data is if
you are using a shortcut that has some override on the command line (or
maybe Start-in location) telling Eudora to use a different data location.

Unfortunately, the Eudora help file is not compatible with Win10, so I
can't actually use it. That leads to (if I stripped the junk from Googles
overhead properly)
https://fossies.org/windows/mail/eudora/Eudora_71_User_Manual.pdf which
does NOT cover command line options explicitly. Closest is page 446 about
the INI file.
"""
Name and Location of the INI File
The default name is EUDORA.INI and the default location is in the mail
directory. But the name and location can be changed.
To specify a different INI file from the EUDORA.INI that is not in the
mail directory, add a second parameter to the command line in the Program
Item for Eudora, for example:
Command Line: c:\apps\eudora.exe c:\mymail c:\inis\myeudora.ini
To use a different INI file that is in the mail directory:
Command Line: c:\apps\eudora.exe c:\mymail myeudora.ini
Command Line: c:\apps\eudora.exe c:\mymail\myeudora.ini
This is a way to have multiple settings for one set of mailboxes,
nicknames, etc. For example, you may have multiple email accounts in which
you receive mail, but want to collect mail from all of the accounts in one
place. You could set up separate Program Items for each account (each
having a different INI file on the command line), and switching between
accounts would be as simple as double-clicking on a Program Item.
And for an even more tricky specification, if the first parameter is an
INI filename without a path, then the mail directory is searched through
the normal process of checking the EUDORA environment variable and then
using the executable directory.
Examples:
SET EUDORA=c:\mymail
Command Line: c:\apps\eudora.exe myeudora.ini
will use c:\mymail as the mail directory and c:\mymail\myeudora.ini as the
INI file.
SET EUDORA=myeudora.ini
Command Line: c:\apps\eudora.exe
will use c:\apps as the mail directory and c:\apps\myeudora.ini as the INI
file.
"""

Hmmm, I didn't know about possible environment variable controlling
startup -- if you have one of those, I'd recommend deleting it.

All these overrides are predicated upon a configuration that is not
using the DEFAULT data directory for the account.

[m***@comcast.net]

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 14:21:04 -0400, Dennis Lee Bieber

Post by Dennis Lee Bieber

Post by m***@comcast.net
Data: C:\Program Files (x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora

Which, as mentioned, is still an INCORRECT configuration!
I'll repeat my prior question -- are you using a custom shortcut to
start Eudora? On its own, Eudora should be using the AppData directory of
whatever your admin account is...
A non-admin program has NO rights to modify data found in C:\Program
Files\ (with or without (x86) )! If your non-admin startup is trying to use
a protected location for data files, it /should/ be failing.
The only way it should be using the install directory for data is if
you are using a shortcut that has some override on the command line (or
maybe Start-in location) telling Eudora to use a different data location.
Unfortunately, the Eudora help file is not compatible with Win10, so I
can't actually use it. That leads to (if I stripped the junk from Googles
overhead properly)
https://fossies.org/windows/mail/eudora/Eudora_71_User_Manual.pdf which
does NOT cover command line options explicitly. Closest is page 446 about
the INI file.
"""
Name and Location of the INI File
The default name is EUDORA.INI and the default location is in the mail
directory. But the name and location can be changed.
To specify a different INI file from the EUDORA.INI that is not in the
mail directory, add a second parameter to the command line in the Program
Command Line: c:\apps\eudora.exe c:\mymail c:\inis\myeudora.ini
Command Line: c:\apps\eudora.exe c:\mymail myeudora.ini
Command Line: c:\apps\eudora.exe c:\mymail\myeudora.ini
This is a way to have multiple settings for one set of mailboxes,
nicknames, etc. For example, you may have multiple email accounts in which
you receive mail, but want to collect mail from all of the accounts in one
place. You could set up separate Program Items for each account (each
having a different INI file on the command line), and switching between
accounts would be as simple as double-clicking on a Program Item.
And for an even more tricky specification, if the first parameter is an
INI filename without a path, then the mail directory is searched through
the normal process of checking the EUDORA environment variable and then
using the executable directory.
SET EUDORA=c:\mymail
Command Line: c:\apps\eudora.exe myeudora.ini
will use c:\mymail as the mail directory and c:\mymail\myeudora.ini as the
INI file.
SET EUDORA=myeudora.ini
Command Line: c:\apps\eudora.exe
will use c:\apps as the mail directory and c:\apps\myeudora.ini as the INI
file.
"""
Hmmm, I didn't know about possible environment variable controlling
startup -- if you have one of those, I'd recommend deleting it.
All these overrides are predicated upon a configuration that is not
using the DEFAULT data directory for the account.

As far as I recall the shortcut was created during the installation of
Eudora, I have not made any changes to it.

Target: "C:\Program Files (x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora\Eudora.exe"
Start in: "C:\Program Files (x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora"

To respond to your earlier post, here's more information. I have
looked at the contents of the 'Eudora.ini' file in the following three
locations:

C:\Program Files (x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora
C:\Users\<user>\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files
(x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora
C:\Users\<user>\AppData\Roaming\Qualcomm\Eudora

All the INI files are fairly similiar except for toolbar positioning
numbers. There is only one reference to a file path in all three INI
files.

AutoReceiveAttachmentsDirectory=C:\Program Files
(x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora\My Attachments

Is there something that I can add to the INI file or shortcut to point
to the '...\AppData\Roaming\Qualcomm\Eudora' folder?

[Dennis Lee Bieber]

Post by m***@comcast.net
As far as I recall the shortcut was created during the installation of
Eudora, I have not made any changes to it.
Target: "C:\Program Files (x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora\Eudora.exe"
Start in: "C:\Program Files (x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora"
AutoReceiveAttachmentsDirectory=C:\Program Files
(x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora\My Attachments

That needs to be changed to someplace safe... Probably

C:\Users\<user>\AppData\Roaming\Qualcomm\Eudora\attach

or whereever you want them -- IN your user account space.

Post by m***@comcast.net
Is there something that I can add to the INI file or shortcut to point
to the '...\AppData\Roaming\Qualcomm\Eudora' folder?

Try removing the "start in" specification (mine is blank).

Heck, as an experiment, skip the shortcut and click on the Eudora.exe
file in C:\Program Files (x86)\... and see if that starts up, with the
correct user data directory.

[m***@comcast.net]

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 16:08:59 -0400, Dennis Lee Bieber

Post by Dennis Lee Bieber

Post by m***@comcast.net
As far as I recall the shortcut was created during the installation of
Eudora, I have not made any changes to it.
Target: "C:\Program Files (x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora\Eudora.exe"
Start in: "C:\Program Files (x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora"
AutoReceiveAttachmentsDirectory=C:\Program Files
(x86)\Qualcomm\Eudora\My Attachments

That needs to be changed to someplace safe... Probably
C:\Users\<user>\AppData\Roaming\Qualcomm\Eudora\attach
or whereever you want them -- IN your user account space.

Post by m***@comcast.net
Is there something that I can add to the INI file or shortcut to point
to the '...\AppData\Roaming\Qualcomm\Eudora' folder?

Try removing the "start in" specification (mine is blank).
Heck, as an experiment, skip the shortcut and click on the Eudora.exe
file in C:\Program Files (x86)\... and see if that starts up, with the
correct user data directory.

Still getting the error after removing the path name in the "start in"
of the shortcut. Also,manually running 'eudora.exe' in the
'C:\Program Files (x86)\...' directory generates the error.

[DaveH2]

The data folder location is stored in the file deudora.ini, not in eudora.ini.
It's defined in the "DataFolder=" line.

[Dennis Lee Bieber]

Post by DaveH2
The data folder location is stored in the file deudora.ini, not in eudora.ini.
It's defined in the "DataFolder=" line.

No such line found in my installation... I do have

[Settings]
NC=1
Code=NC
UseAppData=1

[Mappings]
out=txt,ttxt,TEXT,text,plain
...

[m***@comcast.net]

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 16:11:14 -0400, Dennis Lee Bieber

Post by Dennis Lee Bieber

Post by DaveH2
The data folder location is stored in the file deudora.ini, not in eudora.ini.
It's defined in the "DataFolder=" line.

No such line found in my installation... I do have
[Settings]
NC=1
Code=NC
UseAppData=1
[Mappings]
out=txt,ttxt,TEXT,text,plain
...

I have the same three lines under the [Settings] section as Dennis.

[DaveH2]

Post by m***@comcast.net
On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 16:11:14 -0400, Dennis Lee Bieber

Post by Dennis Lee Bieber

Post by DaveH2
The data folder location is stored in the file deudora.ini, not in eudora.ini.
It's defined in the "DataFolder=" line.

No such line found in my installation... I do have
[Settings]
NC=1
Code=NC
UseAppData=1
[Mappings]
out=txt,ttxt,TEXT,text,plain
...

I have the same three lines under the [Settings] section as Dennis.

Mine has -

NC=1
Code=NC
DataFolder=E:\Eudora Data

I suspect the "UseAppData=1" line points to the default location.
Try putting a custom line in like mine to point to where you want the data folder to be. BACK UP everything first of course, just in case of disaster!

[m***@comcast.net]

Post by DaveH2
Mine has -
NC=1
Code=NC
DataFolder=E:\Eudora Data
I suspect the "UseAppData=1" line points to the default location.
Try putting a custom line in like mine to point to where you want the data folder to be. BACK UP everything first of course, just in case of disaster!

SUCCESS!!!!! That did it. I'm not sure what the consequences will be
of running Eudora this way but it's working now. Maybe it's time to
convert over to Outlook.

Thanks Dave and Dennis, you guys have been awesome.

[Dennis Lee Bieber]

Post by m***@comcast.net
SUCCESS!!!!! That did it. I'm not sure what the consequences will be
of running Eudora this way but it's working now. Maybe it's time to
convert over to Outlook.

It might be time to browse the system registry. Note: I'm running
regedt32 as admin, which is why the following shows "Root" for current user
(I would expect to see "Wulfraed" otherwise; running as admin lets me view
the user specific keys for all users).

-=-=-
Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Forte]

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Forte\Agent]

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Forte\Agent\Paths]
"NewsUrlIniFile"="C:\\Users\\Root\\AppData\\Roaming\\Forte\\Agent\\AGENT.INI"
"NntpUrlIniFile"="C:\\Users\\Root\\AppData\\Roaming\\Forte\\Agent\\AGENT.INI"
"IniFile"="C:\\Users\\Root\\AppData\\Roaming\\Forte\\Agent\\AGENT.INI"
"MailIniFile"="C:\\Users\\Root\\AppData\\Roaming\\Forte\\Agent\\AGENT.INI"
"NewsIniFile"="C:\\Users\\Root\\AppData\\Roaming\\Forte\\Agent\\AGENT.INI"
"MailtoUrlIniFile"="C:\\Users\\Root\\AppData\\Roaming\\Forte\\Agent\\AGENT.INI"
"NewsUrlExeFile"="C:\\PROGRA~2\\Agent\\agent.exe"
"NntpUrlExeFile"="C:\\PROGRA~2\\Agent\\agent.exe"
"ExeFile"="C:\\PROGRA~2\\Agent\\agent.exe"
"MailExeFile"="C:\\PROGRA~2\\Agent\\agent.exe"
"NewsExeFile"="C:\\PROGRA~2\\Agent\\agent.exe"
"MailtoUrlExeFile"="C:\\PROGRA~2\\Agent\\agent.exe"
-=-=-
... ah, and there is my regular user...
-=-=-
Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_USERS\S-1-5-21-563278543-4189146697-3349291880-1002\SOFTWARE\Forte]

[HKEY_USERS\S-1-5-21-563278543-4189146697-3349291880-1002\SOFTWARE\Forte\Agent]

[HKEY_USERS\S-1-5-21-563278543-4189146697-3349291880-1002\SOFTWARE\Forte\Agent\Installer]
"StartMenuShortcut"=dword:00000001

[HKEY_USERS\S-1-5-21-563278543-4189146697-3349291880-1002\SOFTWARE\Forte\Agent\Paths]
"NewsUrlIniFile"="C:\\Users\\Wulfraed\\AppData\\Roaming\\Forte\\Agent\\AGENT.INI"
"NewsUrlExeFile"="C:\\Program Files (x86)\\Agent\\agent.exe"
"NntpUrlIniFile"="C:\\Users\\Wulfraed\\AppData\\Roaming\\Forte\\Agent\\AGENT.INI"
"NntpUrlExeFile"="C:\\Program Files (x86)\\Agent\\agent.exe"
"IniFile"="C:\\Users\\Wulfraed\\AppData\\Roaming\\Forte\\Agent\\AGENT.INI"
"ExeFile"="C:\\Program Files (x86)\\Agent\\agent.exe"
"MailIniFile"="C:\\Users\\Wulfraed\\AppData\\Roaming\\Forte\\Agent\\AGENT.INI"
"MailExeFile"="C:\\Program Files (x86)\\Agent\\agent.exe"
"NewsIniFile"="C:\\Users\\Wulfraed\\AppData\\Roaming\\Forte\\Agent\\AGENT.INI"
"NewsExeFile"="C:\\Program Files (x86)\\Agent\\agent.exe"
"MailtoUrlIniFile"="C:\\Users\\Wulfraed\\AppData\\Roaming\\Forte\\Agent\\AGENT.INI"
"MailtoUrlExeFile"="C:\\Program Files (x86)\\Agent\\agent.exe"
"NzbIniFile"="C:\\Users\\Wulfraed\\AppData\\Roaming\\Forte\\Agent\\AGENT.INI"
"NzbExeFile"="C:\\Program Files (x86)\\Agent\\agent.exe"
-=-=-

... In particular, check all those *IniFile paths (the *ExeFile should be
okay).

[DaveH2]

Post by m***@comcast.net

Post by DaveH2
Mine has -
NC=1
Code=NC
DataFolder=E:\Eudora Data
I suspect the "UseAppData=1" line points to the default location.
Try putting a custom line in like mine to point to where you want the data folder to be. BACK UP everything first of course, just in case of disaster!

SUCCESS!!!!! That did it. I'm not sure what the consequences will be
of running Eudora this way but it's working now. Maybe it's time to
convert over to Outlook.
Thanks Dave and Dennis, you guys have been awesome.

Glad to hear that worked for you!
Cheers, Dave.